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Post by query on Jul 22, 2006 11:47:15 GMT 7
Hi, Bernie. I was wondering; is there a website that (reliably) lists properties for sale from different estate agents? There are several in Australia (such as domain.com.au), but I've never come across one here. It'd be easier than poring through those tiny ads in Classified that don't give any real information.
Our agent has been a good friend of ours long before he became an estate agent, so we trust him. He ran up against a frustrating problem, though, while looking for a property for us: because the 1% selling commission is supposed to be shared between the buyers' and the sellers' agents, a lot of sellers' agents wouldn't let him make an appointment for us to see their buyers' properties. Incredibly stupid, because - apart from us not being able to view what may or may not have been the perfect place for us - they must have been preventing a lot of potential buyers seeing their places, reduced the numbers who offered, and driven the price down for the sellers (who might not be aware of their agents' policy). Stupid stupid frustratingly blinkered singaporean kia su stupid. Sorry - just venting.
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Post by bernie on Jul 22, 2006 18:38:32 GMT 7
That sounds very strange. Because as far as I know, it doesn't matter what commission the listing agent receives. It could be 1%, 2% or 2.5% or whatever arranged with the seller. But the agent who brings in a buyer will always get 0.5% flat. I have yet to come across any agent who will not allow a viewing when I bring them a buyer. They would be more than happy.
What properties are you talking about, HDB? That should not happen as well because buyers pay buyer's agent and sellers pay listing agent. No crossed paths.
Sometimes an advertisement by certain agents may be an open listing (FSBO). i.e, the owner has advertised by himself, listed the property on the market himself and is not exclusive to anyone. He will work with anyone bringing the buyer to him. Even if it is an open listing which the agent advertised (in the hopes of looking for new buyers and offering them service), your agent will be told so by the listing agent. Since it is open, if your personal agent is competent, there should have no troubles locating it.
In the private property sector, I have never found one agent to not allow me to view their units. Unless they are only getting a terrible commission (under 1%) from a miserly seller - listing agents should run from such sellers. Much problems later, because they are not open to negotiations and terms. But should the property be REALLY, I mean, REALLY GOOD for you, your agent should step out of the way and allow for a viewing, (not taking a commission from the listing agent, I did that before, showing properties where the agent told me that I will not be getting a split) and should you decide to purchase that property, YOU should be paying your agent. That should be the way, actually. All buyers should pay their agents because you would not even know about the property should your agent not work hard and search out the property, arrange viewings and negotiate on your behalf. (By the way, much easier to negotiate on price using a third party as a buffer than face to face by yourself, those who tried negotiating by yourself would know that).
Whether or not your agent receives a commission from the seller's side is besides the point. You hired him, you pay him. It's only natural. If he knows you are paying him.... (instead of the paycheck coming from the seller) who do you think his loyalty will lie with? Who do you think he will fight for when disputes occur? You. When you pay him, all problems are solved.
Commission in Singapore is only 1% - 2% anyways. In USA, it is 6%, 7%, 8%. I don't know your friend personally... but there is something fishy about what you just wrote. WHY can't he locate the properties? You need an answer.
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Post by query on Jul 23, 2006 21:48:02 GMT 7
No, nothing fish about our friend. It was a few months ago, now; private sector. Well, for whatever reason, other agents refused to allow him to make a viewing appointment for us. He would have dropped his share of the commission for us, and we'd be quite happy to pay him, if it came to that. A few times, he asked me to call, because the other agents (a surprising number of them) wouldn't talk to him. A couple of times, I called myself, (before we asked him to help) from ads, and they'd ask if I was an agent. So - he wasn't making it up.
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Post by bernie on Jul 24, 2006 15:02:12 GMT 7
Well, to be frank, I never ever received this reaction. If it was an advertisement to hunt for buyers so as to provide services, they would tell the agent that and there would be nothing to view, anyways. As realtors, of course they will ask who is on the line before knowing what to say and how to say it. They would be more respectful to clients, and less formal with agents. Why not try this, make a call to the ads and say you ARE an agent? And see what happens. I am sure they would not slam down the phone on you, they would be asking you to bring your client if their listing is a genuine listing. Be prepared to tell your name and the agency you represent to them. Agents would frown that I suggest you to do this... but hey, you are a genuine buyer, so you talking to them is good for them. Try it out and you will see exactly what I say to be the truth.
P.S. No way am I doubting your friend, since you know him better, you would know his character. But I can't put a finger on what happened when he tried to communicate with other agents. Try calling and telling them you are an agent and see what responses you get! I would be happy to help you with any other questions you may have.
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Post by MC Donalds on Jul 25, 2006 7:45:08 GMT 7
One more questions, if you don't mind dear fellow boarders: If I hire an agent, then it's clear that I pay the commission of that agent. Now, consider a scenario that I response to an ad in a newspaper and it turns out that the ad was placed by an agent contracted by the land lord, i.e. I am acting with the land lord's agent without an agent of my own. Who pays the fees then? Sounds to me that since there is only seller's agent involved it's the seller who pays the commission, not me. I should only pay the commission to the agent that I have hired myself. Any comments? Oh yes, talking about overpricing... responded to an ad in a newspaper advertizing a good looking place for 2.4k. Went to see the place, they quote me the price 3.2k. A few days later, the same ad appears in the newspaper. Now an Asian (not even Singaporean) friend calls on my behalf and they quote the price 2.4k negotiable. Great to be a white male! I think I'll just offer them 1.6k/month to piss them off. They quote 800 up, I'll offer 800 down. Sounds fair to me
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Post by bernie on Jul 25, 2006 10:11:54 GMT 7
Lol, Mc Donalds! Don't think you would get the place at a difference of $800, there are other tenants out there. Probably your friend, when he/she visits the place in person, they might get the bait and swtich as well. I don't actually know how many practice this kind of nonsense, at least I don't, and none of the realtors that I know personally. Not logical for them to raise the price. If the landlord only wants $1000 for rental, and this smart aleck manages to rent this place to a foreigner for $1900, what would happen? The landlord would be telling everyone of his landlord friends how GREAT this agent is and now, ALL the other landlords want to work with him and expect him to produce miracles, turning $3000 properties into $4500 rentals per month, etc. Impossible to do, simply because there are OTHER agents, OTHER landlords in the market with similar properties.
The smart realtor does this, first, he will find out the range of price that the market will support. What others have been paying in the 6 months or so for similar properties. Then he will advice the landlord accordingly. If the landlord is a reasonable person and sees the facts in black and white, he will likely go along with the realtor's suggestion to price it at a fair market value. In this way, the property would be rented out QUICKLY. And the next time this landlord sings his praises to other landlords, they will also want to hire him because he rents out the properties fast. And since it was priced at a reasonable market value in parallel with demand, no doubt the next property will move as well. Instead of being an agent that produces miracle, far more logical to be an agent who fills the vacancy fast. One is not duplicable, the other is very repeatable. Unless you are a fly by night agent, you would do it the smart and consistent way. The key here is referrals and long term business.
There seems to be an undertone that agents are crafty, self serving salesman. Nothing is further from the truth. Many of us realtors are honest, and we do a good job (we hope) getting our clients what they want in an upright manner. We are business people who have to work on our business plans, sort out our own accounting, manage our expenses, train other agents, juggle our time and sort out disputes, handle clients in the most efficient manner, handle the paperwork, negotiate, continue to network and to keep interacting with people already in our network, on top of our personal commitments and family commitments. Definitely not sell, sell, sell. I would much say, rather, service, service, service. Because we are looking at the long term relationships. Not just a one time closing. Of course, there is a possibilty of certain black sheeps as in any industry. But I would not speak for them. You would be able to tell WHO is sincere and who is not simply by spending a few minutes talking to them.
Just a little rant (excuse me) because I would like people to look at realtors in a much more positive light. (lacking at the moment). And I am doing my part to deliver a sincere service, too. Along with a lot of other realtors.
Mc, regarding your question, it is not your obligation to pay the agent if he works for the landlord. However, if you enjoyed his service, you can choose to pay him, if you wish. Because even if your realtor brought you to this property, your realtor would be getting his pay from you, and the listing agent from the landlord anyways... without getting extra from your side. This is when negotiation comes into play. If you can put it across that you are very willing to go ahead with the property... you just don't want to come up with the commission, the deal might go through. Ask him/her to be reasonable. Ask him if what he/she is doing is for the best of the landlord or not. (They landlord would want every offer to be presented to him). And let him know that you know... if you came with an agent, he gets nothing from you anyways. If he insists that you pay, (because you're unrepresented by a realtor, you're white, you're a foreigner, etc), then you may have to let go of this deal. This may happen to local tenants too. Some (not all) agents are conditioned that when they are dealing with a client unrepresented by an agent, HE becomes THE agent and he MUST get at least something from that client. It's all negotiable. There are no hard and fast rules whether you MUST pay or you MUSTN'T pay. Anyone who tells you that there is a rule/law is out of their minds. It's like... oh, I heard that so and so got that place without paying the agent. You MUSTN'T pay. That would be the same as me telling you, My wife has blonde hair and green eyes, you MUSTN'T marry anyone with blue/brown/black eyes! That is the rule!
In essence, it's a free market. Willing seller, willing buyer.
Find the deal that you like, and go ahead with it. As simple as that.
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Post by bernie on Jul 25, 2006 10:30:26 GMT 7
New Topic >>>>Went to see the place, they quote me the price 3.2k. A few days later, the same ad appears in the newspaper. Now an Asian (not even Singaporean) friend calls on my behalf and they quote the price 2.4k negotiable. Great to be a white male! I think I'll just offer them 1.6k/month to piss them off.
That could be the racism we all encounter in Singapore. I label this evil - the colonial mentality. Considering the fact that my taxi was snatched from me by a local woman (airport usher) to give to a white man.... they MUST see you whites as VERY RICH to do that! Lol.
The only way this discrimination stops is by active voicing out and action on all our parts, mine and yours. Of course, the temptation is great to 'enjoy' the extra courtesy and attention, it comes with a price. Sometimes, this price comes in a form of $, at other times, it comes in unwanted attention, and/or false expectations. I still remember my childhood friend telling me, that when his family go and buy things, even in neighbourhood shops, they invariably get a higher price than anyone else. And to think that he was born and raised in Singapore. Racism/discrimination will only go down when we stand up.
Singapore is no longer a colony. Whites are no longer the minority 'masters' who control vast plantations..... and black/Asian slavery has been outlawed long ago. Many white people I know are here to work hard and they make the same amount, or even less than what some locals are making. And if they are charged more simply because they are a different colour, it is simply not fair. For whites to get preferential treatment over locals (by the perceived fact that they are 'wealthier') is simply unacceptable as well.
We need to wipe out this colonial mentality/discrimination thing because it affects everyone. What is the colour of your blood?
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Post by MC Donalds on Jul 25, 2006 16:46:18 GMT 7
Nah, never intended to get that property anyway. You don't want to be a stuck with a land lord with that kind of a mentality. Just wanted to offer something ridiculously low to annoy him.
Thanks for the advice regarding the commission - pretty much what I thought it ought to be! This agent, by the way, is different one from the hiked up place. I'll see what he has to say about the commission in case the deal appears to go through. The place is nice, though.
I'm not sure if it's the colonial mentality, rather pure greed. Exists all over the place, not only here, even though appears to be a bit more common here than in many other places. Some other places are also more open in a sense that rents etc. are included in the ads so it's easier to get an idea of the going rates. Nevertheless, when in Singapore do as the Singaporeans do.
Talking about which... I was just offered S$15k for my one-year old HD with the mileage of only 2,000km. An identical second hand one is for sale at the HD dealer for S$32k.
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Post by MC Donalds on Jul 25, 2006 21:36:52 GMT 7
Argh! Realized that it's the smelly clothes and coughing time, the beginning of the hungry ghost festival. Not supposed to move to a new place or make renovations until September 21.
What will be the consequences of moving to a new place now?
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Post by bernie on Jul 26, 2006 20:51:49 GMT 7
You will be visited a hungry ghost.
It is actually very easy to get around it. Just buy some food and offerings and set up an altar facing the main road.
Start burning the offerings (paper money, nice paper clothes, paper watches, etc)
When a hungry ghost appear, wave the food around.
Once the ghost approaches, grab the food and ask the ghost for the winning lottery numbers in exchange for the food.
Write down numbers.
Give the promised reward.
Strike the lottery, move to a new place.
Repeat procedures. (Must happen before September 21! Let's see how many lotteries can you strike before then!)
Please post results.
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Post by MC Donalds on Jul 26, 2006 21:02:12 GMT 7
Sounds like a hungry ghost might nice fellow to hang around! Why would I try to keep them out if they can make a millionaire of me? Burning a few pieces of paper sounds like a low price to pay for an unlimited supply of winning lottery numbers. Those numbers include information on which lottery, and which week, they will win, right?
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Post by query on Sept 4, 2007 23:48:50 GMT 7
Hah!
Just reviving this to point out that last week, even the ST deigned to notice the kind of problems we had, since CASE has been inundated with so many similar reports to ours (ie selling agents refusing to co-broke)
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