Post by zak on Apr 21, 2006 11:37:17 GMT 7
Author Topic: Citizenship Issue
MarryingLocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 02:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm an American marrying a local Singaporean. When our children are born they will automatically be considered Singaporean citizens. Can I apply for American citizenship on behalf of my children at the time birth? (Thus, resulting in dual citizenship?)
IP: Logged
Double trouble
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes.
did it - but UK & SGP
IP: Logged
MarryingLocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you!
IP: Logged
level head
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 09:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's lots of threads on the implications for National Service liability on this board. It's worth reviewing it all so you can make informed decisions later.
IP: Logged
Son of the soil
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 09:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Might be easier for you to arrange for your wife to be in the US just before she gives birth (before the tummy gets too big for flying) and have your children borned on US soil. Saves all the hussle.
IP: Logged
si!
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 10:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Works for the Mexicans - pop across the border, have an "anchor baby" who's automatically a citizen, then bring the rest of the family over.
IP: Logged
What R U Talking About?
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 11:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OP is an American. No need for "anchor babies".
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 11:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would steer clear of having SG citizenship, especially for boys. It's 'irrevocable' and not something to take on without very serious consideration!
IP: Logged
level head
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there's some talk of a rule whereby you can avoid the NS problems if you leave before the child is 11 years old? How does that work anyone?
IP: Logged
Eskimoe Joe
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the Eskimoe embassy and take out inuit citizenship; all good!
IP: Logged
nsmen
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi There !
You can marry a Singaporean ,can apply for PR/citizen if your on employment pass but kids can't have dual citizen ,not allowed under Singapore law ,thats a choice you have to make .
As a Singaporean PR or citizen you have to serve in the NS .Why people make such a big deal ,I would wish my country had done the same .
IP: Logged
dual citizen with child 3
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course your child can have dual citizenship, just be sure if your child is male to give up the singaporean citizenship early enough. What are the singaporean government going to do, come and tear up my sons other two passports?
please!
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kids certainly can have dual citizenship here (SG+Other). Only later they need to give one up as adults.
NS is not a big deal if you live here perhaps. Most foreigners get worried because they may leave SG and later be legally required to send their kids back to SG to serve.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"give up the singaporean citizenship early enough"
This is the catch. How can it be given up? Legally you can't give it up until you are 21 - i.e. after NS has been served. As stated above there is some rule regards children who leave SG under the age of 11 but I can't find the documentation on that yet.
IP: Logged
Marryinglocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 02:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your responses. I'm actually the mother and we plan to live in Singapore and educate our children here. I love my home country and will always 'be American' and I would like my children to have the opportunity to be Americans as well. National Service isn't really an issue for us. The kids can decide later which one they want later on in life. At 21 I'm pretty sure they can figure things out.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is you can't wait til they are 21 to decide what to do. Kids now require exit permits at 13, so keep an eye on how the rules progress. You may find you need to make decisions much earlier than you would like. Of course if you are living on here for the long term there's no real issue, just let them serve like everyone else.
IP: Logged
do think it through
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you do need to think this through because although your son will be old enough to choose his own citizenship, the question of ns liability needs to be addressed before he is old enough to make that decision for himself,k or the choice will be taken from him.
I am british, father is singaporean. If your kids are born here they AUTOMATICALLY have singapore citizenship, you CANNOT refuse that on their behalf, it is their birthright.
You then go to your embassy and get citizenship by descent from your home country - at least that is how it worked with UK mother - if you so wish.
On the NS issue, if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS, there is no bond on leaving the country etc.
You cannot wait till said son turns 21. He will then be required to renounce one citizenship. If he chooses to keep his s`pore citizenship then of course he should be doing ns. If he chooses his american citizenship he will STILL be required to serve ns before he renounces his s`pore citizenship. This is because he has lived here all his life, he is a citizen, why should he be excused if this is his home, if his entire family is still living here and he still intends to stay here too?
The worry is if you were to move back to the us when he was say 12/13. He would have to come back here to complete his ns liabilities. If he is close to extended family here is might not be too bad, but kids adapt fast, spending his teenage years away and identifying more with us culture he may not be so willing to come back to serve for a country he no longer feels any tie to.
Which is why I say you will need to make the choice, to preserve HIS right to choose. If you think there is a liklihood of your heading back to the us it should be before he turns 11 and the liability is no longer there. The CHOICE I believe is still there, should your son wish to stay a s`porean or wish to complete ns for his own reasons, he is still able to do that. The opposite choice, to remain american and stay there and have no liability to serve ns in s`pore is not.
My aim in finding this info out for myself was to ensure my son does have that choice, though in all honestly we are hoping to move back in the next 3 - 5 years (son will be 4 - 6) so we are not leaving over the ns issue. It`s just our personal choice to move back.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On the NS issue, if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS, there is no bond on leaving the country etc. "
But how do we register this fact with the SG gov? Or it is enough to just get the SG passport scanned on the way out and make sure we are not back in SG for more than certain number of days per year?
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>You cannot wait till said son turns 21. He will then be required to renounce one citizenship. If he chooses to keep his s`pore citizenship then of course he should be doing ns. If he chooses his american citizenship he will STILL be required to serve ns before he renounces his s`pore citizenship.
Therein lies the rub.
The problem is that NS obligations kick in BEFORE one is allowed to renounce citizenship. Therefore - if your child is still resident in Singapore after age 11, then there is no way he can escape his NS obligations as that kicks in at age 19.
Only after NS is completed, at age 21, can he make the decision to renounce his Singapore or US citizenship. By which point is rather moot to many.
IP: Logged
rub it in
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 05:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore - if your child is still resident in Singapore after age 11, then there is no way he can escape his NS obligations as that kicks in at age 19."
Infact even if you are non-resident (leaving after 11yrs of age) you still have to come back and serve (even if you don't have family in SG) - that's the real rub.
Well unless you want to be deserter and never step into singapore ever again.
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 06:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct - the obligation is tied to citizenship, not place of residence at age 11! Sorry, was a tad shoddy with what I typed.
IP: Logged
Okapi
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 07:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>there is some rule regards children who leave SG under the age of 11 but I can't find the documentation on that yet.<<
I don't think there's any such rule. Rather, it has to do with the male child's passport, which is valid only till their 11th birthday.
From 11 & 16½ years old, he would have to continuously renew/extend it (due to the exit control measures governing NS pre-enlistees).
At 16½, he would be called up for formally register for NS.
Between then & his actual conscription date at age 17½-18, he would be subjected to the Enlistment Act provisions (exit permits for overseas travel, deferment for further studies, etc.).
His parents must post a security bond for the child (both aforementioned groups) to be based overseas for a longer time. Something like $75,000 or half the annual parents' income of both parents, whichever higher.
But the old "passport control" method of pre-enlistees is now removed . The new biometric passports made it impractical & costly to issue new ones every 1-2 years, like before.
Offsetting it, pre-enlistees aged 13 & above must now apply for Exit Permits to go overseas (3 months or more), down from aged 16½ previously.
The law was also changed to penalize both Exit Permit offenders & their parents of this group with fines (but no jail time).
IP: Logged
Okapi
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 08:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS<<
No, he IS liable for NS as long as he has a Singaporean birth certificate or identity card. Dual citizenship, age, foreign residency, whatever -- they're irrelevant. I recall the local newspapers reporting some time back how a local Scandinavian boy (Norwegian?) ended up doing military service for both countries.
The penalties for NS defaulters will apply the moment he returns here. To quote from the officials:
a. Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.
b. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his operationally ready NS obligations in full, a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS he has evaded may be appropriate.
c. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot be called up for NS at all, a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years may be appropriate.
IP: Logged
NSlave
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 12:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marryinglocal, do your son a favor and have him in the US !
IP: Logged
Marryinglocal
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 03:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for this discussion.. it has been very informative!
Ok.. for the sake of argument: if I put my son (if I have one) through the torture of NS and he decides he wants to retain BOTH citizenships, is there a way for the SG government to find out he hasn't renounced his US citizenship?
I think I read somewhere they might have to have a certificate stating they renounce their other citizenship?
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okapi: thanks for the detailed information! It's really worse than I thought then! ;-)
IP: Logged
thinking it through
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other choise is just to ignore it and meet inlaws outide SG?
I assume transit at Changi airport (like drugs mules) would also be risky?
IP: Logged
hmmmmmmmmmm
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Offsetting it, pre-enlistees aged 13 & above must now apply for Exit Permits to go overseas (3 months or more), down from aged 16½ previously. "
Does this mean if a kid (13+) is resident out of SG and comes back into the country for a holiday they can't then leave again without getting an exit permit?
IP: Logged
link
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sgwiki.com/wiki/Dual_citizenship
IP: Logged
think it through
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
okapi that is not my experience. As I said we plan to move back for other reasons way before the critical age so I have not looked very very closely at the legislation.
However, my local husband`s uncle and aunt emigrated to Canada with their three sons. As 2 of them were over 11 at the time they were required to pay the bond and reminded of their sons` obligations. However this was NOT the case for the younger son. They paid no bond and he has no ns obligation to face.
This is from true, personal experience, albeit several years ago. Unless something has changed that I am not aware of??
IP: Logged
another link
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 10:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
commentarysingapore.blogspot.com/2005/11/ns-defaulting-pianist.html
One comment summarises things pretty well:
"I should provide a broader perspective on this.
Actually, if Melvyn had the option, he probably would not done the illegal thing and defaulted on the NS obligation. He would have renounced his Singapore citizenship before he turned 18, so that he legally does not need to serve NS, and then he would have left Singapore for good to pursue his musical career overseas. And if this had been done, you would probably have no grounds for complaint.
However, our silly Singapore constitution forbids male Singaporeans from renouncing their citizenship until they turn 21. Effectively this imposes the NS obligation on all of them, since enlistment is at age 18. Furthermore, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution says that the government can disallow you from renouncing your citizenship unless you've finished your NS.
In other words, if you happen to born a male Singaporean, the laws effectively impose an NS obligation even if you had left Singapore at the age of 1 month and your parents had never brought you back and you never have seen Singapore and you never want to live here and you don't have a single relative in this country. And if you do not then fulfill your NS obligation, then like Melvyn you become a criminal by default.
Silly, isn't it. Turkey has a much more sensible system - either you serve your NS or, if you refuse, you lose your citizenship. That means you lose all benefits of being a Turkish citizen, which I think is reasonable.
There IS one reason why this system may not work in Singapore, though. Kekekee. Citizens hardly have very many significant benefits to speak of. I'd rather be a foreign talent here actually. Heheh."
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not paying a bond does not absolve one from NS duties. Age 11 (or 13) is merely the age where males need permission from the government to go overseas or live abroad for extended periods of time. A male citizen is still on the register for call-ups, but leaving before age 11 makes it easier or possible to take up residency or citizenship in another country because the child has not yet been legally notified of his obligations for national service.
Also, there is no way for someone with a Singapore passport to have dual citizenship 'legally'. What many do is to renounce their other citizenship at age 21 - show that documentation to the SG authorities, and then subsequently apply on the sly to reinstate their renounced citizenship. This is generally easier if you are dealing with countries that do not strictly observe/recognise Singapore's strict single citizenship laws. I know of consulates/embassies that will ask for evidence that you are renouncing or have renounced Singapore citizenship before reinstating your status.
This of course, also requires one to be very careful when travelling in and out of Singapore.
IP: Logged
MarryingLocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 02:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm an American marrying a local Singaporean. When our children are born they will automatically be considered Singaporean citizens. Can I apply for American citizenship on behalf of my children at the time birth? (Thus, resulting in dual citizenship?)
IP: Logged
Double trouble
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes.
did it - but UK & SGP
IP: Logged
MarryingLocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you!
IP: Logged
level head
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 09:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's lots of threads on the implications for National Service liability on this board. It's worth reviewing it all so you can make informed decisions later.
IP: Logged
Son of the soil
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 09:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Might be easier for you to arrange for your wife to be in the US just before she gives birth (before the tummy gets too big for flying) and have your children borned on US soil. Saves all the hussle.
IP: Logged
si!
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 10:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Works for the Mexicans - pop across the border, have an "anchor baby" who's automatically a citizen, then bring the rest of the family over.
IP: Logged
What R U Talking About?
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 11:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OP is an American. No need for "anchor babies".
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 11:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would steer clear of having SG citizenship, especially for boys. It's 'irrevocable' and not something to take on without very serious consideration!
IP: Logged
level head
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there's some talk of a rule whereby you can avoid the NS problems if you leave before the child is 11 years old? How does that work anyone?
IP: Logged
Eskimoe Joe
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the Eskimoe embassy and take out inuit citizenship; all good!
IP: Logged
nsmen
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi There !
You can marry a Singaporean ,can apply for PR/citizen if your on employment pass but kids can't have dual citizen ,not allowed under Singapore law ,thats a choice you have to make .
As a Singaporean PR or citizen you have to serve in the NS .Why people make such a big deal ,I would wish my country had done the same .
IP: Logged
dual citizen with child 3
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course your child can have dual citizenship, just be sure if your child is male to give up the singaporean citizenship early enough. What are the singaporean government going to do, come and tear up my sons other two passports?
please!
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kids certainly can have dual citizenship here (SG+Other). Only later they need to give one up as adults.
NS is not a big deal if you live here perhaps. Most foreigners get worried because they may leave SG and later be legally required to send their kids back to SG to serve.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 01:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"give up the singaporean citizenship early enough"
This is the catch. How can it be given up? Legally you can't give it up until you are 21 - i.e. after NS has been served. As stated above there is some rule regards children who leave SG under the age of 11 but I can't find the documentation on that yet.
IP: Logged
Marryinglocal
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 02:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your responses. I'm actually the mother and we plan to live in Singapore and educate our children here. I love my home country and will always 'be American' and I would like my children to have the opportunity to be Americans as well. National Service isn't really an issue for us. The kids can decide later which one they want later on in life. At 21 I'm pretty sure they can figure things out.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is you can't wait til they are 21 to decide what to do. Kids now require exit permits at 13, so keep an eye on how the rules progress. You may find you need to make decisions much earlier than you would like. Of course if you are living on here for the long term there's no real issue, just let them serve like everyone else.
IP: Logged
do think it through
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you do need to think this through because although your son will be old enough to choose his own citizenship, the question of ns liability needs to be addressed before he is old enough to make that decision for himself,k or the choice will be taken from him.
I am british, father is singaporean. If your kids are born here they AUTOMATICALLY have singapore citizenship, you CANNOT refuse that on their behalf, it is their birthright.
You then go to your embassy and get citizenship by descent from your home country - at least that is how it worked with UK mother - if you so wish.
On the NS issue, if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS, there is no bond on leaving the country etc.
You cannot wait till said son turns 21. He will then be required to renounce one citizenship. If he chooses to keep his s`pore citizenship then of course he should be doing ns. If he chooses his american citizenship he will STILL be required to serve ns before he renounces his s`pore citizenship. This is because he has lived here all his life, he is a citizen, why should he be excused if this is his home, if his entire family is still living here and he still intends to stay here too?
The worry is if you were to move back to the us when he was say 12/13. He would have to come back here to complete his ns liabilities. If he is close to extended family here is might not be too bad, but kids adapt fast, spending his teenage years away and identifying more with us culture he may not be so willing to come back to serve for a country he no longer feels any tie to.
Which is why I say you will need to make the choice, to preserve HIS right to choose. If you think there is a liklihood of your heading back to the us it should be before he turns 11 and the liability is no longer there. The CHOICE I believe is still there, should your son wish to stay a s`porean or wish to complete ns for his own reasons, he is still able to do that. The opposite choice, to remain american and stay there and have no liability to serve ns in s`pore is not.
My aim in finding this info out for myself was to ensure my son does have that choice, though in all honestly we are hoping to move back in the next 3 - 5 years (son will be 4 - 6) so we are not leaving over the ns issue. It`s just our personal choice to move back.
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On the NS issue, if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS, there is no bond on leaving the country etc. "
But how do we register this fact with the SG gov? Or it is enough to just get the SG passport scanned on the way out and make sure we are not back in SG for more than certain number of days per year?
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>You cannot wait till said son turns 21. He will then be required to renounce one citizenship. If he chooses to keep his s`pore citizenship then of course he should be doing ns. If he chooses his american citizenship he will STILL be required to serve ns before he renounces his s`pore citizenship.
Therein lies the rub.
The problem is that NS obligations kick in BEFORE one is allowed to renounce citizenship. Therefore - if your child is still resident in Singapore after age 11, then there is no way he can escape his NS obligations as that kicks in at age 19.
Only after NS is completed, at age 21, can he make the decision to renounce his Singapore or US citizenship. By which point is rather moot to many.
IP: Logged
rub it in
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 05:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore - if your child is still resident in Singapore after age 11, then there is no way he can escape his NS obligations as that kicks in at age 19."
Infact even if you are non-resident (leaving after 11yrs of age) you still have to come back and serve (even if you don't have family in SG) - that's the real rub.
Well unless you want to be deserter and never step into singapore ever again.
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 06:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct - the obligation is tied to citizenship, not place of residence at age 11! Sorry, was a tad shoddy with what I typed.
IP: Logged
Okapi
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 07:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>there is some rule regards children who leave SG under the age of 11 but I can't find the documentation on that yet.<<
I don't think there's any such rule. Rather, it has to do with the male child's passport, which is valid only till their 11th birthday.
From 11 & 16½ years old, he would have to continuously renew/extend it (due to the exit control measures governing NS pre-enlistees).
At 16½, he would be called up for formally register for NS.
Between then & his actual conscription date at age 17½-18, he would be subjected to the Enlistment Act provisions (exit permits for overseas travel, deferment for further studies, etc.).
His parents must post a security bond for the child (both aforementioned groups) to be based overseas for a longer time. Something like $75,000 or half the annual parents' income of both parents, whichever higher.
But the old "passport control" method of pre-enlistees is now removed . The new biometric passports made it impractical & costly to issue new ones every 1-2 years, like before.
Offsetting it, pre-enlistees aged 13 & above must now apply for Exit Permits to go overseas (3 months or more), down from aged 16½ previously.
The law was also changed to penalize both Exit Permit offenders & their parents of this group with fines (but no jail time).
IP: Logged
Okapi
unregistered posted 11-04-2006 08:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>if you leave singapore before your son (that`s if you have a son!) turns 11, and do not return here to live, then your son is not liable to serve NS<<
No, he IS liable for NS as long as he has a Singaporean birth certificate or identity card. Dual citizenship, age, foreign residency, whatever -- they're irrelevant. I recall the local newspapers reporting some time back how a local Scandinavian boy (Norwegian?) ended up doing military service for both countries.
The penalties for NS defaulters will apply the moment he returns here. To quote from the officials:
a. Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.
b. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his operationally ready NS obligations in full, a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS he has evaded may be appropriate.
c. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot be called up for NS at all, a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years may be appropriate.
IP: Logged
NSlave
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 12:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marryinglocal, do your son a favor and have him in the US !
IP: Logged
Marryinglocal
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 03:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for this discussion.. it has been very informative!
Ok.. for the sake of argument: if I put my son (if I have one) through the torture of NS and he decides he wants to retain BOTH citizenships, is there a way for the SG government to find out he hasn't renounced his US citizenship?
I think I read somewhere they might have to have a certificate stating they renounce their other citizenship?
IP: Logged
kids got dual
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okapi: thanks for the detailed information! It's really worse than I thought then! ;-)
IP: Logged
thinking it through
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other choise is just to ignore it and meet inlaws outide SG?
I assume transit at Changi airport (like drugs mules) would also be risky?
IP: Logged
hmmmmmmmmmm
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Offsetting it, pre-enlistees aged 13 & above must now apply for Exit Permits to go overseas (3 months or more), down from aged 16½ previously. "
Does this mean if a kid (13+) is resident out of SG and comes back into the country for a holiday they can't then leave again without getting an exit permit?
IP: Logged
link
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.sgwiki.com/wiki/Dual_citizenship
IP: Logged
think it through
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 09:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
okapi that is not my experience. As I said we plan to move back for other reasons way before the critical age so I have not looked very very closely at the legislation.
However, my local husband`s uncle and aunt emigrated to Canada with their three sons. As 2 of them were over 11 at the time they were required to pay the bond and reminded of their sons` obligations. However this was NOT the case for the younger son. They paid no bond and he has no ns obligation to face.
This is from true, personal experience, albeit several years ago. Unless something has changed that I am not aware of??
IP: Logged
another link
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 10:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
commentarysingapore.blogspot.com/2005/11/ns-defaulting-pianist.html
One comment summarises things pretty well:
"I should provide a broader perspective on this.
Actually, if Melvyn had the option, he probably would not done the illegal thing and defaulted on the NS obligation. He would have renounced his Singapore citizenship before he turned 18, so that he legally does not need to serve NS, and then he would have left Singapore for good to pursue his musical career overseas. And if this had been done, you would probably have no grounds for complaint.
However, our silly Singapore constitution forbids male Singaporeans from renouncing their citizenship until they turn 21. Effectively this imposes the NS obligation on all of them, since enlistment is at age 18. Furthermore, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution says that the government can disallow you from renouncing your citizenship unless you've finished your NS.
In other words, if you happen to born a male Singaporean, the laws effectively impose an NS obligation even if you had left Singapore at the age of 1 month and your parents had never brought you back and you never have seen Singapore and you never want to live here and you don't have a single relative in this country. And if you do not then fulfill your NS obligation, then like Melvyn you become a criminal by default.
Silly, isn't it. Turkey has a much more sensible system - either you serve your NS or, if you refuse, you lose your citizenship. That means you lose all benefits of being a Turkish citizen, which I think is reasonable.
There IS one reason why this system may not work in Singapore, though. Kekekee. Citizens hardly have very many significant benefits to speak of. I'd rather be a foreign talent here actually. Heheh."
IP: Logged
peeps
unregistered posted 12-04-2006 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not paying a bond does not absolve one from NS duties. Age 11 (or 13) is merely the age where males need permission from the government to go overseas or live abroad for extended periods of time. A male citizen is still on the register for call-ups, but leaving before age 11 makes it easier or possible to take up residency or citizenship in another country because the child has not yet been legally notified of his obligations for national service.
Also, there is no way for someone with a Singapore passport to have dual citizenship 'legally'. What many do is to renounce their other citizenship at age 21 - show that documentation to the SG authorities, and then subsequently apply on the sly to reinstate their renounced citizenship. This is generally easier if you are dealing with countries that do not strictly observe/recognise Singapore's strict single citizenship laws. I know of consulates/embassies that will ask for evidence that you are renouncing or have renounced Singapore citizenship before reinstating your status.
This of course, also requires one to be very careful when travelling in and out of Singapore.
IP: Logged
request for NS deferment on basis of emigration - obtain until age 21